What is honestly concerning about these graphs?
Can’t you see the blatant pump & dump pattern on every single chart?
And what has that (pump & dump) to do with bots and/or multiple accounts (topic)?
The pump & dump is a result of the reward system, with its model comparing it to the 4wk averages. That’s what I’m seeing in these charts.
I agree, a fair launch platform settles most of the problems. And CAPTCHA is the largest crap system I ever deal with in my internet journeys. If it forces me to slow down then we have a problem because I see efficiency as extremely important in anything I do. CAPTCHA does not do anything positive for this.
The ‘pump and dump’ that the CannibalSheep screenshot indicates has very little to do with Rally rewards. The screenshot shows that the first few purchasers of a new coin buy it at around 1.10 RLY or less. 120 seconds later the price is about 4 RLY. That’s almost a 300% gain in 2 minutes. This creates an enormous economic incentive for people to create bots in order for them to get those gains. Hell, it might inspire some people to learn programming just for this one purpose. It also creates an arms race where different bot creators try to write more and more sophisticated bots in order to get there first ahead of other bots. The best bot makes the most money. This is true throughout all of crypto and probably other industries as well.
Of course, these buyers can’t sell their coins immediately due to flow controls. This is why you see a ‘sea of red’ for about a week or two after a new coin launch. They are trying to liquidate their purchase as fast as they possibly can within the bounds of the current system. During this time period they will definitely get some Rally rewards which I’m sure they enjoy, but these rewards are really just a bonus on top of the massive gains that they got from being the first purchasers. If they could re-sell their coins an hour after purchase then that’s what they would do regardless of any rewards.
Btw, I believe there may be a different form of ‘pump and dump’ that might occur later in a coins existence where people pump up a coin later on in order to boost rally rewards. I think this is a slightly different topic which I don’t think is related to bots very much.
Note: I want to be clear that I’m not accusing any particular transactions above of being bots. Maybe some are bots maybe some aren’t, the fact of the matter is that some probably are. Also, I was hesitant to post this comment since maybe it isn’t the best idea to give away specific bot information. So if admins want to delete this comment then I would understand. However, I think that the sooner everyone understands the problem the sooner we can move forward. The situation above is the whole reason why Rally is working on a ‘fair launch’ system, its to reduce the bot arms race where a small number of individuals are making huge profits due to their technical skills. I’ve seen a lot of criticisms of ‘fair launch’ on the forums recently. My plan is just to wait and see how it is implemented. My hopes are that it will alleviate the situation, but we’ll see.
If you’re thinking of “making money” yes, then it might be frustrating. If you’re supporting your creator as a fan, it doesn’t matter at all, once you start thinking in the # of Creator Coins owned. As you still hold the same amount of Creator Coins of that specific creator and in most creator cases you can still use it for the same perks, owning 1 / 5 / 50 / 500 coins (in $-value, it does).
And yes I agree, if things are not allowed according to T&C’s, it should be tackled in a correct way. And if not, T&C’s should be updated taking restrictions out.
Besides that, the graphs shared 1) don’t depict the same trends, it’s different starts for several of the examples taken (still BOT as well as non-BOT actions will have occured in buying / selling quickly after launch) and 2) you do see the overall trend of the reward impact, peaking after approx 3-4 weeks (getting close to / in rewards) and again after 7-9 weeks.
But apparently we do see different things in the graphs shared, so we’d better agree to disagree.
In my opinion bot impact as well as reward impact will become less & less over time, as more people will start using Rally.io and creators are continuing building bigger / more engaged communities with more stable creator economies. And yes, with smaller creator coins, peaks will still be likely to happen. But that’s what can happen in every single cryptocurrency in an open market, even with the biggest ones like BTC or ETH.
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Rewards are just a plus on top of their massive gains from Coin launches.
You’re not wrong.
Bots use basic algorithmic trading scripts to find the best opportunities.
They are powerful risk management tools: position sizing, risk/reward ratio, real-time data, stop losses (esp. if another bot/whale or a long con speculator starts dumping), name it.
They can earn as much as 30% ROI per week for about a month from Rewards by targeting low liquidity coins.
Obviously, they’re targeting these coins because they’re mostly whale-free… and they can easily cover any fan selloffs by farming Rewards.
This is exactly what happened with both $NNKC and $CLUB this month:
Solutions:
- I don’t think a crusade against bots is the best use of resources; it is primarily a low liquidity problem.
- Since misrepresenting a human actor with mechanical means in violation of TOS is committing wire fraud; it might be a wise idea for Rally to update its TOS.
- Rally could consult a firm specialized in exploitation techniques and security vulnerabilities. It’s a matter of days before non-amateur coders join the party.
- Make sure every single dev with a restricted API oauth key is legit. A Criminal Check for fraud should be taken into consideration (esp. as they can access some private / personal information of Rally customers).
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The details mentioned in the graduated system section feels like a bit of marsh that could wall off massive amounts of potential-future users while possibly placing a bruise upon Rally that Rally outreach can not resolve nor overcome.
I can see various causes for a negative chain reaction through word of mouth within social scapes if this is handled incorrectly.
How ? If it is easier to support a creator thorough another method, then why bother with Rally ?
Word spreads…and growth slows instead of becoming blazing hot.
- Creative barriers to the average user equates to annoyances.
Example: Photo Captcha from Google is horrendously made.
“Click pictures with Bicycles”… People ask; “does that mean 1 bike or more than 1 bike?..which does it want ? UGH…Grrr…”
*I hear about this all of the time from clients. They are beginning to abhor google and I can’t blame them.
Paypal this past week asked a client for his grandmother’s maiden name… I laughed out loud and said, “that’s absurd…which grandmother?”. Meanwhile the client is 78 and ready to cry as their money is locked behind literal and excessive nonsense.
My point is that fixing one problem must not create a myriad of other problems that get overlooked for the convenience of the primary resolve gained.
In the end, there’s always going to be people camping for a coin launch. Bots should be handled via a method that doesn’t affect Rally’s current growth targets. I feel these general measures would tarnish the brand if implemented as they were mentioned.
Perhaps specifics of these measures will be polished via feedback as to avoid harming Rally’s growth strategy.
People talk and sooner or later, **** hits a fan : A point when suddenly no one flinches/thinks/etc after hearing the grapevine talk badly about something.
- It happens everyday and at the speed of light.
Having said that, I am sure that the team will be avoiding changes that result in unintentional-stifling measures. I simply felt it necessary to point this out as it felt that other replies were of niche and nuance.
Sure we all want bots handled but agreeing to generalized plans without concise details as to how the future of Rally could become affected, is simply rushed thought for temporary resolve as the ship turns heading into newly generated sets of issues.
Thank you for reading. // and this post wasn’t intended to offend anyone. My words are genuine.
- EricB.
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I think you’ve made some great points here and I feel we are really losing the aspect of a free market. A lot of the concerns @CannibalSheep brought up about the pump are dump are extremely valid and may promote speculation over-usage. In my opinion, the issue is not the fact it occurs but that the buying and selling bots are not accessible to everyone. A knife can be used to cook a delicious meal or to cut and kill. It seems more people are using knives to kill so maybe we all just need protective vests. If rly were able to help supporters with buying and sellin bots as they’ve done with launch bots then I don’t think anyone can complain. Although they will because it may be an arms race but no one holds your hand through life so I think that would be an acceptable method of support maintaing the freedoms of this market. I watched the PTM advert the other day and so some of the other creator coin apps which are using fiat currency and tbh if all youre looking for is to pay for creators to do something or give you access. THAT EXISTS IN A MULTITUDE OF WAYS ALREADY WITHOUT CRYPTO.
I believe MJF is an example of the future of rly where those looking to manipulate will be outnumbered by genuine interest so although they have their moments, in the bigger picture they will be irrelevant. His fans are purchasing his coin because it will MOON … HIS FANS ARE SPECULATING ???
Rly is so early in the process I think growing the community and fair competition is necessary. Monetary gains are the incentive in most human action in modern-day society. Pinching that early in the process will stunt rlys growth. I know for a fact if rly was promoted with different ways to make money on the market it would probably have a lot more supporters (probably more the wrong people than right). Recently I feel as if rly is being made so creators can make loads of money off supporters because really and truly I see a lot of concern about supporters making money but very little about the usage of coins. I joined the network originally from one of my friends who knew a creator coming on and after seeing him do well I decided to explore other coins. 70% of coins have boring or useless or literally DO NOT HAVE ANY. If these coins could be used more often then no one would be so confident to pump and dump with their bots. Look at furious pete, hes used speculation to his advantage by telling people he is due to announce to his fans and put some uses there and the bots can no longer affect him because he has made his coin VALUABLE. Look at the rlybook team, their coins value is increasing because their coins provide a useful service and are VALUABLE. Creators need to also be under scrutiny to improve. I know no one wants to say that because we are still trying to get big time creators. At the end of the day creators know what they are getting into by making a coin, can netflix complain if people unsubscribe and go to a new provider or just stop watching netflix. Is it unfair that the person who is still subscribed to netflix is not getting good quality shows anymore because funding is down since the audience has gone elsewhere.
It is a ridiculous notion that after you are already OBLIGED to stake your money in creators for given periods of time @CannibalSheep still feels that this is unfair for creators in my opinion. People dont join youtube and then message youtube to say people subscribe when i have high views and unsubscribe when I have low ones.
Some coins on rly are for pumping and dumbing and speculation. Some are for usage and creator interaction that’s the current state of the creator coin jungle that is rly . It is up to the creators to manage this.
Last thing @CannibalSheep , do you have a coin?
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Speaking for myself, you’re right. I’m still a crypto newb 
I’ll take the time to understand the implications / details of a free market in the coming weeks.
Thanks for your feedback!
I agree. More valuable; more liquidity; less blatant manipulation.
Solution:
- Mid-term business plan?
However, as most of the CRC aren’t even on staff and are certainly overwhelmed at the moment… Idk.
Not sure if I understand your point.
Are you referring to Flow Controls?
No, I don’t have a coin.
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Just my two cents you have to keep in mind that even the bots compete against each other so there is a certain risk. There will always be vulnerable in the system especially if we want a smooth user experience for new people. Same with bots on uniswap arbitrage trading or all the bots used on centralized exchanges. The point is that it becomes difficult over time if rally keeps growing because more people try to profit from this approaches. I m not saying that adding protection against this behavior is a bad idea but there needs to be a balance so that new people can easily use our platform. I believe a lot of the problems is solved by simple growing as a community because this creates a bigger risk for bots losing to other bots. Also a creator can just dump a portion of there coins if they realize that not hes fans are buying in the beginning because he doesn’t announced it yet.
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One interesting aspect of this that I don’t think has been mentioned yet (I may have forgotten as I did not re-read this thread today, so please forgive me if this is a repeat… I do add some context about it.)
I heard about a Creator that pulled out alot/most(?) of the coin either on or near the day of their coin-release as to (as someone said->) something regarding control of the bot/speculation in general that we see with most releases. …that is a little absurd to me… I’ll explain quickly.
I’m not sure who the creator was, I also do not want to know who the creator was.
…that behavior is no different and no less greedy/entitled than bots or the term speculation.
AKA:
How can you yank a rug and then claim it was for any purpose other than your own entitlement/greed ?
No matter your aspect, you didn’t fight the issue, you did exactly what you claimed as wrong when done by others.
There is a term that I hope new Rally Creators have less and less of; entitlement. That is because effort is necessary to succeed.
• Getting involved in crypto and expecting to be the only winner ? Entitlement.
• Having a Creator Coin and using that as reason for performing actions you claim are wrong unless it’s you doing it ? Entitlement.
That term is so toxic.
I hope it is not their character trait and it’s simply a temporary head space caused by mild-gold-fever or similar concept.
On a secondary note: (and let’s not get derailed here…so think of this as something to ponder while away from this thread… if you would. Thank you.)
–REMEMBER<<< PLEASE DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS SECTION AS IT MAY CAUSE A DERAIL. Contact me directly if you like.
• I’m curious why most creators are not helping Rally grow. Where is the actual effort ?
Do some feel they can take the grant money and not help the growth? – That’s more of that toxic behavior based in entitlement.
It shouldn’t need to be a requirement to help Rally grow… but sadly in 2021, maybe it needs to be a requirement. :sad face:
I’d love to be involved more with Rally.
Rally helps creators,…all creators should step up and help Rally grow faster. What is good for Rally is good for all Creators.
• So to close this out…
If you are a creator who does not fully understand aspects of Rally or how to use Rally to its’ fullest ability within your purview, then please find me on discord and we can have a phone call. user @EricB …search my name and send a message. I will respond.
I am very interested in seeing this platform utilized to its’ fullest as this is a flagship-game-changer opportunity for so many. These are very exciting times.
• Lastly, Some inspirational speak;
All creators should work as a smaller community within the larger entire Community.
// Example: How many creators have done cross promotion with one another / another-Creator ?
This systems awaits Creators to put in effort for their own success.
Genuinely; feel free to contact me for a chat/call.
// I do not work for Rally.
//Edit in: I corrected some typos.
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Wrong, he sold 1000$CCs (2% of the 50k creator genesis grant) an hour after his coin launch.
TLDR:
The core issue is the coin launch process… the community grant selloff, bots, etc. are just a symptom.
We should wait for Rally to announce the guidelines and details of the Fair Launch update.
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@Cannibal : You should read and consume sentences at verbatim.
This is a very urgent problem and its solution will greatly simplify and secure the operation of any platform. This is a “sore” question and the time has come to solve it.
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Can we get some more details as to how a queued transaction system would work and how that would be implemented. The description given seems to be really vague and could go in very different directions.
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I don’t see your point @CannibalSheep in relevance of sharing these screens (pump&dump) - related to this topic (bots / multi-sig).
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Check out the bot use on this CC. This person clearly is a moron and likely is who gets in at the lowest rate so found a way to zero their positions with minimal effort. EQUIS link: Rally : Creator Coins
Oh, and JAPAN also! Rally : Creator Coins
And STARS, Rally : Creator Coins
Pretty sure the cc know who they are though…
hi CannibalSheep, these charts are interesting. Where can I access these charts? Thank you in advance.
Connect your Rally account at https://creatorco.in/, and once you log in click the Rally icon over on the left. You’ll find those graphs on the top right of the page. Although he uses some additional browser extension that gives sites a dark mode, as they normally have a white background.
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