Overall, I think a lot of ideas in here are good, but what I’m seeing mostly looks like some people being more on the artistic side and some on the business side. Rally has the opportunity to be a blend of both. We obviously need more incentive than people supporting out of the good will of their heart, and we want to be an attractive alternative that’s not necessarily an investment, but gives rewards for being an early adopter on the platform. And even if some are treating it as investment, we recognize that the creator is still benefitting from those interactions and people are leaving their money in $RLY long term.
@nathanielomarimoore I think this is correct, but I personally feel the rewards system right now leans much more toward the business side (chasing the best return in rewards and price increase) vs. artistic (purchasing/sharing/tipping).
Would you agree or not? If not, what do you think am I missing?
I think in order to get to the artistic side, you have to get to the business side first. As creatives, sometimes we can see that as unfortunate, but I don’t think it has to be. I brought up the total support volume/ the total number of backers for $JAYUS token because the average everyday person simply doesn’t have $1,000/month to support their favorite artists.
So even if institutional investors or whales are chasing rewards, the benefit that the creators will get from those boosts in price activity will even out the rewards cycles. Right now the cycles would go in increments of 4 weeks with the current system. However, if we added some holding extra rewards for holding coins longer or a tiered system this could possibly even it out so that rewards are steady among creators who are actively pushing their projects.
I think any large change to the system that would hinder rewards too much would do more harm than good. However, a small change to encourage holding (not mandate it) may be helpful to deter large pump and dumps. Are people still going to pump and dump? Yes. But so long as that creator still owns a percentage of their token and partakes in the benefits of that pump and dump by gaining weekly rewards as well, so be it. Even with some of the categories listed by @sixmofo, pump and dumps will still be possible.
As long as the system is structured where the creator is benefitting from it as well, it should be allowed. Even if that means that we decrease the flow algorithm by allowing fans/investors to pay more $RLY for the transactions. If they want to pull money out faster, have them give a bigger fee of the token back to the creator. Again, not too huge a fee to deter people from using the platform, but large enough that they’ll have to think about it.
2 Likes
@Idan_Levin has hit on the key point. What is the objective? I would like to add something to this question. Whose objective are we talking about? The optimal objective for the network is not likely optimal for the individual creator and may not be optimal for coin holder that is simply trying to support their creator.
Let’s layout the constituencies:
- The Rally Network (which is the most ambiguous term but let’s say is optimization on a system basis to maximize benefit overall even if it benefits some constituencies more than others).
- Rally, the company
- Creators
- Creator fans/followers/community members
- Investors
In this case, you really have four constituencies (2-5) that collectively make up the Rally network but we want to consider the whole as well as the parts. Some individuals fall into a single category and some in multiple categories (even all of the categories).
The point here is that I fully agree we should start with the objective and not the mechanic to ensure the mechanic is actually addressing the target objective. However, there is not an objective that impacts all of the constituencies (or stakeholders if you prefer) equally.
We should also recognize there are positive and negative objectives. A positive objective is to target something that will lead to growth or some other benefit. A negative objective is to curtail or eliminate something we consider to be a bad behavior. Speculation is the one that gets most often referenced here. What I’d suggest is forgetting about the “solutions” for a moment because based on the discussion I don’t believe there is basic agreement on the objective. If we can get consensive on one or more objectives we are more likely to succeed with implementing a mechanic and foreseeing unintended consequences which are rife in many of the actions taken to date.
So, here is my question for everyone here. What 1-3 problems would you like to address with 1 being the most important to you and 2 and 3 in rank order of lessor importance (but still important to you ;^)?
Of course, you only need to post one but not more than three.
3 Likes
For me at least, the number 1 problem is incentivizing engagement between creators and authentic fans, as opposed to only buying, holding, and selling.
My sense right now is that the vast majority of movement in the creator coins actually has nothing to do with the “creative” part at all. How many holders of $1,000+ in JAYUS follow them on TikTok, or even care about their content? I don’t really know but I’m going to guess very few, if any.
Yes, creators benefit if their coin goes up, but what does that have to do with their creative practice or fan engagement? What does it have to do with creating “vibrant and independent economies with their communities” which is the stated purpose of Rally on the homepage?
If Rally is strictly about using big money to make more money with creators as a front, can it really be said to be living up to its promise?
1 Like
A little of your attention
As the practice of leading projects that want to stimulate society to hold their coins (example of DAO Maker) shows, it is better to motivate people by the number of coins and the storage time of coins. Those. if you hold a relatively small amount but for a very long time, then you can receive as much as a large but recent holder.
Yours faithfully
1 Like
Creator Coin volatility. If I were to quickly think of the top three contributors to volatility in a coin: bonding curve design, fluctuations in. $RLY price, and buying/selling activity of the CC.
We’ve addressed bonding curve design to limit the price impact of buying/selling activity. We cannot directly address $RLY price changes at the CC level (at least no ideas have been put forward yet). However buying/selling activity has been proven to be driven largely by the CAR Rewards system.
If you invite uncapped participation AND uncapped rewards at the CC level, then you should expect large buys and sells that have a disruptive effect on what are small economies. If we allow uncapped participation, but cap the rewards at something reasonable as I suggest - perhaps 1k coins - then you ensure a smaller exodus when the rewards eligibility ends, and smaller RLY rewards on the front end. You also ensure less volatility in the underlying economy, so less disruption of true fans participation with a Creator.
To sum it up, rewards system is disrupting economies by creating strong incentives for large participants to cycle through CCs in pursuit of rewards. Create a reasonable maximum rewards per CC for each participant outside of the Creator in order to limit the volatility.
2 Likes
Personally, I don’t think volatility is a bad thing. You’re going to have it with small cap stuff and the community at large needs the speculation to grow. I think we have to be careful what we wish for with any changes. They may seem like they’re what we want in the short term, but I would venture to say we would actually be more frustrated with the long term declines in growth should we limit speculation too much. A few small changes such as rewards for holding coins longer is fine, but the added benefit of having people invest in creators they don’t know far outweighs the downside in the long run. Although, after doing some digging Rally DOES have it setup where people who sell off a CC have to pay a fee to both the creator and Rally, so the more they do that, the more they have to pay. As long as a creator isn’t selling off their stake and their true fans aren’t selling off their coins, they’ll both benefit in the long run. I feel those small changes I’ve listed previously should suffice for now without compromising the growth potential at large for the platform, creators and investors as a whole.
I think the Creators feel differently about the volatility (and have spoken up in forums and discord to this effect) and the feeling of being “held hostage” by the presence of large speculators in their economies. I think the platform loses far less than the Creators gain by putting in some reasonable caps on rewards for a coin.
These generous caps wouldn’t preclude speculators from participating, it would just place some limits. I think it would be very healthy for the coins and the data will prove it out whenever we can get a look at it.
1 Like
@jose_delphi @kevindelphi
I hope your team is doing well and enjoying the work on TBCs and rewards! Would any of the Delphi digital team working on behalf of the Rally community be able to weigh in on this discussion? We could really use your expertise and your access to the platform data to bring us closer to actionable improvements. If you have some things in the works, even a rough timeline of when we could expect some suggestions to come out of your research could help the community determine if we should take action in the interim or get to work here. Thanks!
1 Like
@Grand yes, we’ll be chiming in with some thoughts on this topic soon. We’re working with the Rally team on a phase II proposal and are trying to get that ironed out this week. Will have more on this in the coming days but we’re starting to dig into some of the key issues / questions that’ve been raised in this post. Hope this helps!
1 Like
I think we do have to account for the silent majority on these issues as well though. From my own personal experience marketing for over 15,000 music artists so far, what often happens is that when someone is happy with a service, they simply keep using it. Fortunately or unfortunately, the only feedback you get on the administrative side is that people keep using your platform. The bias we would see with this issue is that those who are most passionate on the opposing side are quite often overwhelmingly the ones speaking up. This is just human nature. For example, billions of people use companies like Facebook, Amazon, and Google. And the vast majority of them simply continue using the service with little to no feedback for the administration. However, if I went to look at reviews on Trustpilot or another site for these same companies, you would see the majority of people leaving bad reviews. This would not be an accurate reflection of how the community at large feels. I am only cautioning against making drastic changes without accounting for the silent majority. I’ve already listed previously some small changes I believe would be helpful.
as nathniel mentioned ‘needs the speculation to grow.’ I think having an open market with price discovery is needed or people can’t understand how a thing is valued.
Perhaps an orderbook system so people can express value for real. There are exchange systems to do that today.
Thanks! Awesome! Looking forward to it.
Very good points, ultimately the rewards are for those that “create”. If a creator is doing that then he or she should get some incentives and the community will benefit from that type of behavior.
When American Express was giving out rewards for the first time, I know of a friend who arbitraged the system and walked away with a crazy amount of points from finding gaps with the system. It was fixed and now the loophole is closed. Maybe we can learn from the credit cards rewards plans? After all they are a tested model?
I believe the plan I had laid out allows for real measurement for success. Which is what we want!!! It allows for a creator to hit 10 targets and reap more rewards if they have a solid business plans. It allows for a level playing field and the majority of the measurements can be handled by an algorithm and taking any extra effort from the team on a weekly basis.
This achieves everything the reward system was supposed to do from where I sit.
3 Likes
If we limited rewards to only the first 1k coins wouldn’t that have two potentially negative consequences?
-
Create an incentive for speculators to simply make more accounts to maximize the placement of 1k coins into a creator economy to maximize the return while simultaneously evading many of the flow controls and penalizing “fans” that won’t go to the trouble of setting up multiple accounts as they are there to support the creator instead of farming rewards.
-
Artificially penalize some of the creators biggest supporters that are most likely to be large coin holders.
Got it. I agree your objectives are clear. I was more referring to a variety of other comments that seemed to have slightly different objectives and wanted to see how much overlap or divergence there is. Your plan is well thought out. My chief recommendation would be to simplify it and start with fewer categories and then measure the impact. Then we could see about adding some others in the future or tweaking them. 10 seems like a lot of categories. Maybe you could also simplify the mechanics about growth targets.
I’d also set a scorecard with target metrics so we could measure whether the change is achieving the target goal. Overall, I’m supportive of this type of initiative.
2 Likes
Good questions, and I appreciate your thoughts here. I do think any consequences of changes should be weighed also, against what we are currently seeing ann what I’ve characterized as negative in light of the creator coin volatility I’ve highlighted, with the most recent example we could see with Jayus - exodus of 500k RLY.
It is worth noting that the new curve has clearly proven very attractive for farming rewards, while presenting a lower impact on the price of the CC when speculators cycle to the next CAR reward opportunity.
To the first point around incentivizing multiple accounts to undermine the system, I would say that Rally should already be in a position to see if folks are using multiple accounts to farm or otherwise game the system to then send their coins/RLY and exit via a single KYC’d account. I think it would be even easier to detect at scale, but I could be wrong on both accounts.
Are we penalizing super fans is harder to say, and how harsh is that penalty weighed against the price volatility and loss in the underlying value of their coin holdings?
The data should be pretty clear on how many fans are holding, and not selling 1k coins across creators. [side note here that we’d want some multiple of 1k coins for the alternate bonding curve; my 1k example would be for the sigmoidal curve]. Additionally, we’ve seen coin prices tumble by double digit %s that rewards simply can’t compensate for. If you were to reduce that volatility that is driven by the exodus when rewards dry up, then I believe you’ve ensured that the fans preserve more of the value that they’ve committed.
Ultimately, we are still stuck in the position of not having the data to inform this discussion. However, Delphi has committed to some updates next week that should put us in a better position to continue this discussion. Look forward to discussing this further when we aren’t forced into guesswork here!
1 Like
As a quick thought experiment, what would things look like if the weekly reward distribution was just based on total RLY backing a coin and not a cyclical measure of recent growth?
| creator | price | avg balance last 4 weeks | current rly backing | weekly reward | last weeks reward | what if rewards were just pro rata on backing? | reward per backing rly old | reward per backing rly new | reward per market cap old | reward per market cap new |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| calledhigher | $0.63 | 306,400 | 618,653 | 56382 | 61507 | 26790.78408 | 0.09113671153 | 0.04330502572 | 0.29 | 0.14 |
| wrekonizeontwitch | $1.05 | 53,932 | 69,625 | 12086 | 20720 | 3015.112416 | 0.1735870736 | 0.04330502572 | 0.21 | 0.05 |
| kaansanity | $1.13 | 55,285 | 71,857 | 13015 | 10046 | 3111.769233 | 0.1811236205 | 0.04330502572 | 0.21 | 0.05 |
| xcelencia | $1.74 | 59,018 | 103,142 | 21230 | 22929 | 4466.566963 | 0.2058327355 | 0.04330502572 | 0.21 | 0.04 |
| xell | $1.01 | 54,914 | 67,952 | 10923 | 12887 | 2942.663108 | 0.1607458206 | 0.04330502572 | 0.20 | 0.05 |
| ubershouts | $1.38 | 60,860 | 85,590 | 15918 | 5846 | 3706.477152 | 0.1859796705 | 0.04330502572 | 0.19 | 0.04 |
| ethanpierse | $1.04 | 54,575 | 65,228 | 10408 | 15061 | 2824.700218 | 0.1595633777 | 0.04330502572 | 0.18 | 0.05 |
| joebart | $1.02 | 57,760 | 69,421 | 10378 | 1302 | 3006.278191 | 0.1494936691 | 0.04330502572 | 0.18 | 0.05 |
| dankhoo | $1.19 | 58,477 | 72,033 | 11770 | 4222 | 3119.390918 | 0.1633973318 | 0.04330502572 | 0.17 | 0.04 |
| morrolantv | $0.98 | 58,503 | 68,953 | 9733 | 12979 | 2986.011439 | 0.1411541195 | 0.04330502572 | 0.17 | 0.05 |
| rootcatz | $1.16 | 59,726 | 72,716 | 11448 | 17719 | 3148.968251 | 0.1574344023 | 0.04330502572 | 0.17 | 0.05 |
| persian | $2.30 | 85,258 | 186,608 | 32063 | 39426 | 8081.06424 | 0.171820072 | 0.04330502572 | 0.16 | 0.04 |
| optimysticra | $0.99 | 57,372 | 64,620 | 8291 | 2079 | 2798.370762 | 0.1283039307 | 0.04330502572 | 0.15 | 0.05 |
| steveolsher | $1.09 | 62,022 | 71,360 | 9712 | 7759 | 3090.246636 | 0.1360986547 | 0.04330502572 | 0.14 | 0.05 |
| renee | $1.71 | 71,576 | 101,911 | 17511 | 34407 | 4413.258477 | 0.1718263975 | 0.04330502572 | 0.14 | 0.04 |
| casuallyexplained | $0.44 | 453,382 | 547,026 | 28436 | 61393 | 23688.975 | 0.05198290392 | 0.04330502572 | 0.14 | 0.12 |
| h1t1_official | $1.01 | 63,335 | 71,281 | 8909 | 16410 | 3086.825539 | 0.1249842174 | 0.04330502572 | 0.14 | 0.05 |
| stevenvbe | $1.18 | 63,329 | 73,032 | 9927 | 773 | 3162.652639 | 0.1359267171 | 0.04330502572 | 0.13 | 0.04 |
| anrblock | $0.82 | 593,879 | 988,374 | 63552 | 92929 | 42801.5615 | 0.06429954653 | 0.04330502572 | 0.13 | 0.09 |
| meleestats | $1.02 | 55,084 | 60,310 | 7092 | 16673 | 2611.726101 | 0.1175924391 | 0.04330502572 | 0.13 | 0.05 |
| thisjustin | $0.43 | 339,949 | 378,551 | 18012 | 57147 | 16393.16079 | 0.04758143553 | 0.04330502572 | 0.12 | 0.11 |
| cheese | $1.13 | 61,809 | 68,548 | 8313 | 14193 | 2968.472903 | 0.1212726848 | 0.04330502572 | 0.12 | 0.04 |
| minhsmind | $1.18 | 64,711 | 71,700 | 8471 | 17304 | 3104.970344 | 0.1181450488 | 0.04330502572 | 0.11 | 0.04 |
| awesomejoey | $1.04 | 58,959 | 63,660 | 6750 | 0 | 2756.797938 | 0.1060320452 | 0.04330502572 | 0.11 | 0.05 |
| maxfrost | $1.08 | 60,222 | 64,934 | 6943 | 1892 | 2811.96854 | 0.1069239536 | 0.04330502572 | 0.11 | 0.04 |
| ggdoa | $1.14 | 66,427 | 72,983 | 7982 | 0 | 3160.530692 | 0.109367935 | 0.04330502572 | 0.11 | 0.04 |
| bigjon | $0.98 | 57,508 | 61,068 | 5647 | 6852 | 2644.551311 | 0.09247068841 | 0.04330502572 | 0.10 | 0.05 |
| sonder | $1.05 | 68,033 | 74,509 | 7169 | 0 | 3226.614162 | 0.09621656444 | 0.04330502572 | 0.10 | 0.04 |
| hinssen | $1.18 | 64,338 | 70,452 | 7241 | 0 | 3050.925672 | 0.1027791972 | 0.04330502572 | 0.10 | 0.04 |
| jasonsteinhauer | $1.09 | 62,336 | 66,618 | 6398 | 22756 | 2884.894204 | 0.09604010928 | 0.04330502572 | 0.09 | 0.04 |
| cpa2kleague | $1.06 | 58,085 | 61,308 | 5638 | 14206 | 2654.944517 | 0.09196189731 | 0.04330502572 | 0.09 | 0.04 |
| newagetna | $2.21 | 103,652 | 145,717 | 20666 | 29105 | 6310.278433 | 0.1418228484 | 0.04330502572 | 0.09 | 0.03 |
| fab5freddy | $1.03 | 58,673 | 61,196 | 5018 | 3824 | 2650.094354 | 0.08199882345 | 0.04330502572 | 0.08 | 0.04 |
| danschawbel | $2.01 | 99,629 | 125,728 | 16358 | 18642 | 5444.654274 | 0.1301062611 | 0.04330502572 | 0.08 | 0.03 |
| condor | $1.01 | 57,339 | 59,504 | 4637 | 17590 | 2576.822251 | 0.07792753428 | 0.04330502572 | 0.08 | 0.04 |
| slick | $1.07 | 63,687 | 67,717 | 5239 | 11122 | 2932.486427 | 0.07736609714 | 0.04330502572 | 0.08 | 0.04 |
| ohmygodstephen | $2.77 | 109,173 | 159,599 | 22743 | 24678 | 6911.438801 | 0.1425008929 | 0.04330502572 | 0.08 | 0.02 |
| naomiandmar | $2.57 | 113,005 | 155,818 | 20962 | 30947 | 6747.702498 | 0.1345287451 | 0.04330502572 | 0.07 | 0.02 |
| nitenightkid | $2.94 | 112,935 | 164,704 | 22936 | 0 | 7132.510957 | 0.1392558772 | 0.04330502572 | 0.07 | 0.02 |
| gregarious | $1.10 | 65,228 | 68,466 | 4951 | 0 | 2964.921891 | 0.07231326498 | 0.04330502572 | 0.07 | 0.04 |
| jaybaer | $1.16 | 67,184 | 69,958 | 5337 | 8675 | 3029.53299 | 0.07628863032 | 0.04330502572 | 0.07 | 0.04 |
| drewskievr | $1.06 | 58,440 | 60,161 | 4109 | 5872 | 2605.273653 | 0.0683000615 | 0.04330502572 | 0.07 | 0.04 |
| mayorreynolds | $1.08 | 61,816 | 63,652 | 4342 | 7565 | 2756.451497 | 0.06821466725 | 0.04330502572 | 0.07 | 0.04 |
| dinglecrypto | $2.44 | 111,308 | 142,118 | 17708 | 23319 | 6154.423646 | 0.1246006839 | 0.04330502572 | 0.07 | 0.02 |
| goodcoin | $1.75 | 96,495 | 108,284 | 10968 | 0 | 4689.241406 | 0.1012892025 | 0.04330502572 | 0.06 | 0.03 |
| insight1 | $2.28 | 114,372 | 142,197 | 16883 | 25041 | 6157.844743 | 0.1187296497 | 0.04330502572 | 0.06 | 0.02 |
| painuser | $1.28 | 76,171 | 79,747 | 6037 | 26813 | 3453.445886 | 0.07570190728 | 0.04330502572 | 0.06 | 0.04 |
| clothia | $1.01 | 58,549 | 59,820 | 3471 | 15634 | 2590.506639 | 0.05802407222 | 0.04330502572 | 0.06 | 0.04 |
| tophertownmusic | $1.08 | 63,120 | 64,351 | 3531 | 11594 | 2786.72171 | 0.05487094218 | 0.04330502572 | 0.05 | 0.04 |
| bkramer | $1.37 | 81,832 | 84,507 | 5240 | 1551 | 3659.577809 | 0.06200669767 | 0.04330502572 | 0.05 | 0.03 |
| soulofjacobeh | $1.32 | 70,805 | 73,505 | 4347 | 1801 | 3183.135916 | 0.05913883409 | 0.04330502572 | 0.05 | 0.03 |
| xtinaholder | $3.53 | 146,261 | 200,442 | 23559 | 19711 | 8680.145966 | 0.1175352471 | 0.04330502572 | 0.05 | 0.02 |
| shipbroman | $9.55 | 118,076 | 377,223 | 51320 | 21474 | 16335.65172 | 0.1360468476 | 0.04330502572 | 0.05 | 0.01 |
| kaellyn | $1.93 | 116,832 | 132,251 | 9891 | 0 | 5727.132957 | 0.07478960462 | 0.04330502572 | 0.04 | 0.03 |
| elevategg | $1.03 | 59,006 | 59,303 | 2650 | 13526 | 2568.117941 | 0.04468576632 | 0.04330502572 | 0.04 | 0.04 |
| avagg | $1.49 | 89,491 | 92,542 | 5569 | 12515 | 4007.533691 | 0.0601780813 | 0.04330502572 | 0.04 | 0.03 |
| amy4monte | $2.50 | 132,773 | 151,055 | 13670 | 20798 | 6541.440661 | 0.0904968389 | 0.04330502572 | 0.04 | 0.02 |
| clubcoin | $1.01 | 63,896 | 63,385 | 2528 | 403 | 2744.889056 | 0.03988325314 | 0.04330502572 | 0.04 | 0.04 |
| seershamusic | $4.38 | 169,333 | 227,270 | 24304 | 39655 | 9841.933196 | 0.1069388833 | 0.04330502572 | 0.03 | 0.01 |
| johnkoetsier | $4.14 | 169,887 | 220,553 | 22780 | 31444 | 9551.053339 | 0.1032858315 | 0.04330502572 | 0.03 | 0.01 |
| thebackpackshow | $2.82 | 152,316 | 168,724 | 12897 | 12522 | 7306.59716 | 0.07643844385 | 0.04330502572 | 0.03 | 0.02 |
| tejas | $1.11 | 68,740 | 67,594 | 2100 | 0 | 2927.159909 | 0.03106784626 | 0.04330502572 | 0.03 | 0.04 |
| japandyjones | $1.25 | 72,371 | 69,460 | 2400 | 5104 | 3007.967087 | 0.03455226029 | 0.04330502572 | 0.03 | 0.03 |
| djjohnaskew | $1.69 | 92,252 | 92,136 | 3840 | 10619 | 3989.95185 | 0.04167752019 | 0.04330502572 | 0.02 | 0.03 |
| jaffejuice | $3.54 | 172,746 | 194,487 | 14929 | 21487 | 8422.264538 | 0.07676091461 | 0.04330502572 | 0.02 | 0.01 |
| annhandley | $2.78 | 152,773 | 163,156 | 10325 | 17176 | 7065.474777 | 0.06328299296 | 0.04330502572 | 0.02 | 0.02 |
| auggievelarde | $1.27 | 76,910 | 77,442 | 2337 | 4016 | 3353.627802 | 0.0301774231 | 0.04330502572 | 0.02 | 0.03 |
| mjf | $1.65 | 128,505 | 119,810 | 4570 | 22375 | 5188.375132 | 0.03814372757 | 0.04330502572 | 0.02 | 0.02 |
| lefevrediary | $0.98 | 58,497 | 57,785 | 1158 | 10476 | 2502.380911 | 0.02003980272 | 0.04330502572 | 0.02 | 0.04 |
| evankirstel | $3.29 | 173,591 | 185,536 | 10969 | 19424 | 8034.641253 | 0.05912060193 | 0.04330502572 | 0.02 | 0.01 |
| mang0 | $3.90 | 189,616 | 209,361 | 14182 | 30052 | 9066.383491 | 0.06773945482 | 0.04330502572 | 0.02 | 0.01 |
| scottmonty | $1.59 | 101,893 | 102,329 | 2899 | 16855 | 4431.359977 | 0.02833018988 | 0.04330502572 | 0.02 | 0.03 |
| isocialfanz | $4.90 | 223,672 | 250,608 | 16611 | 34953 | 10852.58589 | 0.06628280023 | 0.04330502572 | 0.02 | 0.01 |
| ckurdziel | $1.39 | 85,267 | 85,577 | 1784 | 2511 | 3705.914186 | 0.02084672283 | 0.04330502572 | 0.02 | 0.03 |
| emerymusic | $4.51 | 219,010 | 241,926 | 14559 | 47455 | 10476.61165 | 0.06017955904 | 0.04330502572 | 0.01 | 0.01 |
| cryptosrus | $1.10 | 65,581 | 64,939 | 1047 | 740 | 2812.185066 | 0.01612282296 | 0.04330502572 | 0.01 | 0.04 |
| maddie | $1.56 | 95,587 | 95,559 | 2047 | 8751 | 4138.184953 | 0.02142132086 | 0.04330502572 | 0.01 | 0.03 |
| platformprotv | $3.86 | 236,874 | 251,865 | 12172 | 20927 | 10907.0203 | 0.04832747702 | 0.04330502572 | 0.01 | 0.01 |
| drazeforce | $1.97 | 118,743 | 118,959 | 3114 | 21138 | 5151.522555 | 0.02617708622 | 0.04330502572 | 0.01 | 0.02 |
| jauzofficial | $2.17 | 121,079 | 122,233 | 3364 | 6572 | 5293.303209 | 0.02752120949 | 0.04330502572 | 0.01 | 0.02 |
| powerplay | $1.48 | 91,425 | 91,643 | 1498 | 10871 | 3968.602472 | 0.01634603843 | 0.04330502572 | 0.01 | 0.03 |
| digitaldoctor | $0.96 | 60,769 | 56,756 | 605 | 9108 | 2457.82004 | 0.01065966594 | 0.04330502572 | 0.01 | 0.04 |
| selah | $3.49 | 189,321 | 191,937 | 5744 | 0 | 8311.836722 | 0.02992648629 | 0.04330502572 | 0.01 | 0.01 |
| wobbleweezy | $3.72 | 163,713 | 166,833 | 5264 | 26084 | 7224.707357 | 0.03155251059 | 0.04330502572 | 0.01 | 0.01 |
| iambomanix | $2.59 | 158,819 | 149,855 | 3273 | 33880 | 6489.47463 | 0.02184111308 | 0.04330502572 | 0.01 | 0.02 |
| 6amgroup | $1.79 | 128,421 | 118,462 | 1828 | 18414 | 5129.999957 | 0.01543110871 | 0.04330502572 | 0.01 | 0.02 |
| nicholena | $10.01 | 347,590 | 405,280 | 24235 | 41700 | 17550.66083 | 0.05979816423 | 0.04330502572 | 0.01 | 0.01 |
| roffle | $8.05 | 395,250 | 443,086 | 21356 | 52553 | 19187.85063 | 0.04819831816 | 0.04330502572 | 0.01 | 0.01 |
| itsdivineog | $1.11 | 69,220 | 68,318 | 463 | 234 | 2958.512747 | 0.006777130478 | 0.04330502572 | 0.01 | 0.04 |
| theplaycoin | $13.41 | 386,799 | 472,383 | 29610 | 36775 | 20456.55797 | 0.06268218797 | 0.04330502572 | 0.01 | 0.00 |
| meta4ickal | $6.21 | 281,091 | 290,082 | 9509 | 19630 | 12562.00847 | 0.03278038624 | 0.04330502572 | 0.01 | 0.01 |
| stanz | $3.50 | 195,447 | 197,083 | 3506 | 15821 | 8534.684385 | 0.01778945926 | 0.04330502572 | 0.01 | 0.01 |
| mrblock | $0.99 | 58,584 | 57,182 | 293 | 9539 | 2476.267981 | 0.005123990067 | 0.04330502572 | 0.01 | 0.04 |
| foushy | $1.06 | 71,932 | 69,617 | 366 | 0 | 3014.765976 | 0.00525733657 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.04 |
| dberkowitz | $8.88 | 354,539 | 376,890 | 15036 | 21588 | 16321.23115 | 0.03989492956 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.01 |
| petershankman | $8.04 | 338,545 | 354,121 | 12407 | 26791 | 15335.21901 | 0.035036047 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.01 |
| jowyang | $9.89 | 384,784 | 404,464 | 14185 | 22972 | 17515.32392 | 0.03507110645 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.00 |
| waxmotif | $5.70 | 280,233 | 282,788 | 4886 | 733 | 12246.14161 | 0.01727796088 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.01 |
| ableblack | $15.32 | 509,938 | 531,268 | 14791 | 12565 | 23006.57441 | 0.02784093904 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.00 |
| joepulizzi | $15.96 | 524,331 | 547,041 | 15040 | 0 | 23689.62458 | 0.02749336887 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.00 |
| jeffpulver | $14.22 | 541,306 | 554,812 | 11675 | 20953 | 24026.14793 | 0.02104316417 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.00 |
| lukiluki | $18.53 | 566,018 | 590,081 | 15686 | 33599 | 25553.47288 | 0.02658279118 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.00 |
| emocoin | $0.41 | 340,272 | 276,386 | 199 | 28318 | 11968.90284 | 0.0007200075257 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.09 |
| alliestrasza | $26.72 | 690,271 | 752,832 | 25338 | 36442 | 32601.40913 | 0.0336569115 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.00 |
| keeyuh | $1.64 | 101,804 | 101,808 | 223 | 362 | 4408.798059 | 0.002190397611 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.03 |
| livibee | $16.12 | 553,549 | 562,341 | 9016 | 29534 | 24352.19147 | 0.01603297643 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.00 |
| armano | $0.97 | 58,687 | 56,170 | 57 | 12832 | 2432.443295 | 0.001014776571 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.04 |
| mizzy | $1.76 | 108,835 | 108,827 | 99 | 1192 | 4712.756035 | 0.0009097007177 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.02 |
| art | $8.05 | 377,161 | 365,849 | 1063 | 0 | 15843.10036 | 0.002905570331 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.01 |
| kevinchou | $29.09 | 800,293 | 801,573 | 6977 | 4950 | 34712.13938 | 0.008704135494 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.00 |
| chewiemelodies | $1.78 | 111,292 | 110,420 | 0 | 0 | 4781.74094 | 0 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.02 |
| jvckj | $3.04 | 189,910 | 176,648 | 0 | 0 | 7649.746184 | 0 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.01 |
| twlevewinshs | $1.67 | 105,743 | 103,376 | 0 | 0 | 4476.700339 | 0 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.03 |
| downtoquest | $9.01 | 599,741 | 364,625 | 0 | 39693 | 15790.095 | 0 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.00 |
| fanhots | $4.66 | 246,334 | 241,703 | 0 | 0 | 10466.95463 | 0 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.01 |
| jane | $3.30 | 186,420 | 185,553 | 0 | 0 | 8035.377438 | 0 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.01 |
| tina | $1.78 | 122,214 | 109,915 | 0 | 0 | 4759.871902 | 0 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.02 |
| arvius | $1.60 | 99,950 | 99,684 | 0 | 155 | 4316.818184 | 0 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.03 |
| carmen | $2.12 | 130,058 | 129,050 | 0 | 0 | 5588.51357 | 0 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.02 |
| viviana | $1.99 | 134,442 | 120,348 | 0 | 0 | 5211.673236 | 0 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.02 |
| ksk_honda | $32.47 | 846,837 | 846,460 | 0 | 6326 | 36655.97207 | 0 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.00 |
| blametruthoc | $1.52 | 94,334 | 94,293 | 0 | 1026 | 4083.360791 | 0 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.03 |
| gengesports | $11.90 | 622,051 | 446,104 | 0 | 0 | 19318.5452 | 0 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.00 |
| susie | $1.12 | 67,545 | 67,434 | 0 | 1921 | 2920.231105 | 0 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.04 |
| portugaltheman | $26.94 | 797,214 | 758,484 | 0 | 0 | 32846.16913 | 0 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.00 |
| vanishesports | $1.50 | 108,749 | 93,740 | 0 | 0 | 4059.413111 | 0 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.02 |
| vibelol | $1.64 | 118,130 | 102,246 | 0 | 0 | 4427.76566 | 0 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.02 |
| theclassicmatt | $7.10 | 399,526 | 316,779 | 0 | 0 | 13718.12274 | 0 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.00 |
| mitchjoel | $1.02 | 67,324 | 60,658 | 0 | 0 | 2626.79625 | 0 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.04 |
| ark | $1.03 | 64,987 | 60,085 | 0 | 19424 | 2601.982471 | 0 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.04 |
| garylhenderson | $12.14 | 472,602 | 452,196 | 0 | 0 | 19582.35941 | 0 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.00 |
| voicebot | $4.51 | 282,546 | 232,348 | 0 | 8215 | 10061.83612 | 0 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.01 |
| hardaway | $1.04 | 64,514 | 62,459 | 0 | 379 | 2704.788602 | 0 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.04 |
| hugs86 | $1.15 | 75,946 | 69,346 | 0 | 0 | 3003.030314 | 0 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.03 |
| tastelesstv | $1.52 | 120,594 | 96,848 | 0 | 0 | 4194.005131 | 0 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.02 |
| illmind | $1.97 | 160,445 | 130,577 | 0 | 0 | 5654.640344 | 0 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.02 |
| crisisofmanofc | $1.38 | 107,009 | 95,816 | 0 | 10125 | 4149.314345 | 0 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.03 |
| s2jjj | $1.00 | 70,813 | 59,161 | 0 | 14327 | 2561.968627 | 0 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.04 |
| dekkster | $1.80 | 132,728 | 113,576 | 0 | 0 | 4918.411602 | 0 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.02 |
| jackneel | $1.27 | 85,810 | 77,999 | 0 | 4913 | 3377.748701 | 0 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.03 |
| willchobra | $0.97 | 63,816 | 56,112 | 0 | 0 | 2429.931603 | 0 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.04 |
| justmaiko | $2.22 | 144,348 | 139,911 | 0 | 0 | 6058.849454 | 0 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.02 |
| xidingart | $0.95 | 60,744 | 54,959 | 0 | 9846 | 2380.000909 | 0 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.04 |
| imrobvoice | $3.29 | 243,569 | 185,398 | 0 | 13722 | 8028.665159 | 0 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.01 |
| carole_baskin | $1.35 | 138,986 | 101,896 | 0 | 0 | 4412.608901 | 0 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.02 |
| wuki | $1.55 | 150,572 | 95,829 | 0 | 0 | 4149.87731 | 0 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.02 |
| furiouspete | $1.28 | 129,691 | 82,681 | 0 | 0 | 3580.502832 | 0 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.02 |
| flashpoint | $1.56 | 113,475 | 97,922 | 0 | 66 | 4240.514729 | 0 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.02 |
| tafokints | $0.94 | 61,473 | 56,232 | 0 | 0 | 2435.128207 | 0 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.04 |
| chrismessina | $1.11 | 70,230 | 64,911 | 0 | 0 | 2810.972525 | 0 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.04 |
| chillindude | $0.94 | 62,524 | 53,360 | 0 | 0 | 2310.756173 | 0 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.04 |
| startupbros | $2.00 | 182,482 | 138,113 | 0 | 24982 | 5980.987018 | 0 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.02 |
| onlyjayus | $0.57 | 873,957 | 567,729 | 0 | 43456 | 24585.51895 | 0 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.05 |
| brianclark | $1.22 | 124,515 | 80,843 | 0 | 17059 | 3500.908195 | 0 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.02 |
| yucef | $0.94 | 57,972 | 52,093 | 0 | 0 | 2255.888705 | 0 | 0.04330502572 | 0.00 | 0.04 |
I don’t think the above “solves” any of the noted issues but I do think it highlights the extreme recency bias of the current system relative to a naive alternative. I think there are a lot of opportunities to improve the current rewards system but I’d start with a relatively simple question, “is the comparison to a time bound trailing average doing what we want it to?”
i believe at conception the thinking was that “growth” should be the primary driver of rewards and that the system should allow for new entrants to compete on even footing with established players. i think both of those general thoughts still true but i don’t think the current design accomplishes that intent.
i think this is less a data analysis need than a re-examination of what we want to incentivize. so maybe a slight reframe… there are 3 questions:
- what should the total reward emission be?
- which behaviors at the coin owner level should be rewarded?
- which behaviors at the user level should be rewarded?
to date #1 has been based on total creators live, #2 has been growth in RLY backing over baseline, and #3 has been owning coins consistent with #2.
#1 is the only one that seems to benefit from data analysis. #2 and #3 are subjective determinations based on what we believe is best for the network and will probably be better to change over time than set programmatically in perpetuity. what if we just reset the discussion with crisp articulations of preferences for #2 and #3 that can inform a design follow up?
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On point, as usual! Thank you for joining the discussion and helping us refocus here with a re-examination of what we want to incentivize. Here is my thinking and preferences below for #2 and #3.
I think the fundamental issue is that “growth” has remained the exclusive driver of rewards, despite even at the inception of CAR the realization that we do want to (and must) incentivize other behaviors to build healthy creator economies. As we discussed last November: Proposal - Community Activity Rewards , or as Kevin put it there “usage by token Creators and their communities is ultimately what will drive long term success of the network.”
I trust your analysis and consideration of circulating supply and mainnet liquidity and liquidity mining incentives to make suggestions here.
Sustainable growth as measured by RLY backing, user/fan growth, campaign redemptions, donations received, measurable usage of passive benefits (ex: gated discord channel user count, twitch channel subscriptions, innovative use cases.
Engagement with creator as measured by long term holding, campaign redemptions, donations, CC holdings measured by RLY backing.
Perhaps, but I also believe that some data analysis could also help us re-evaluate the allocation of those rewards emission between Growth and other behaviors we want to incentivize across #2/3, such as usage. For instance, what insights can we draw from campaign redemptions and donations at the Creator level. Setting aside for the moment passive holding benefit usage that is difficult to quantify. How many fans in the user base are engaging with these features and to what extent?
Then maybe look at something like where do the top creators as measured by donations/campaign redemptions stack up in the total CAR rewards. Are we seeing any trends in the economies that leverage these features that might not be present in economies that exclusively feature passive benefits? I do think answering these questions can help us with the tuning of rewards emissions between the incentives that we identify.
That’s what I think! I also would add that this problem is so challenging as is, that the community might benefit from a virtual working session to explore these questions (and the many responses above) in real time to compliment all the weighing in here with forum posts…if you or the team or Delphi or some combination would be up for hosting one.
Cheers,
Grand
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